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	<title>Comments on: What happened to the Twins&#8217; pitching?</title>
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	<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/</link>
	<description>Baseball news, insight and analysis from Aaron Gleeman</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 19:34:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13546</link>
		<dc:creator>bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it was Dave St. Peter on Barreiro&#039;s show a couple years ago who was asked &quot;all things being equal, do you draft the high upside pitcher or the position player?&quot; Without hesitation, St. Peter answered &quot;position player.&quot; The logic is obvious, esp. considering escalating injury rates with pitchers. Problem is, by the time a strikeout pitcher reaches free agency, he will have already pitched his best seasons. His fastball velocity will quickly decline, his joints will become more frail, etc. Plenty of guys can be effective well into their 30s, but all things being equal, the TWins need to place a higher emphasis on drafting pitchers and pony up the cash to lock up free agent position players, whose skill sets don&#039;t decline as rapidly (namely, power - speed guys are like pitchers whose primes are early).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it was Dave St. Peter on Barreiro&#8217;s show a couple years ago who was asked &#8220;all things being equal, do you draft the high upside pitcher or the position player?&#8221; Without hesitation, St. Peter answered &#8220;position player.&#8221; The logic is obvious, esp. considering escalating injury rates with pitchers. Problem is, by the time a strikeout pitcher reaches free agency, he will have already pitched his best seasons. His fastball velocity will quickly decline, his joints will become more frail, etc. Plenty of guys can be effective well into their 30s, but all things being equal, the TWins need to place a higher emphasis on drafting pitchers and pony up the cash to lock up free agent position players, whose skill sets don&#8217;t decline as rapidly (namely, power &#8211; speed guys are like pitchers whose primes are early).</p>
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		<title>By: mazeville</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13523</link>
		<dc:creator>mazeville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a little tardy on this response, but my point, Mike, isn&#039;t so much enthusiasm for the young crop of pitchers -- I fully understand that it&#039;ll take a while for them to reach the majors (though, I content that JO&#039;s debut is as exciting a development in the Twins&#039; system as there&#039;s been in a while ...). 

My point, instead, is to note that Aaron should have given that more acknowledgement than just a few words in passing. Given his point -- that the Twins need to change their pitching philosophy and find more pitchers who miss bats -- is right on target, to the point that the TWINS CHANGED THEIR DRAFTING PHILOSOPHY ALREADY. He&#039;s LATE. That&#039;s my point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little tardy on this response, but my point, Mike, isn&#8217;t so much enthusiasm for the young crop of pitchers &#8212; I fully understand that it&#8217;ll take a while for them to reach the majors (though, I content that JO&#8217;s debut is as exciting a development in the Twins&#8217; system as there&#8217;s been in a while &#8230;). </p>
<p>My point, instead, is to note that Aaron should have given that more acknowledgement than just a few words in passing. Given his point &#8212; that the Twins need to change their pitching philosophy and find more pitchers who miss bats &#8212; is right on target, to the point that the TWINS CHANGED THEIR DRAFTING PHILOSOPHY ALREADY. He&#8217;s LATE. That&#8217;s my point.</p>
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		<title>By: mike wants wins</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13498</link>
		<dc:creator>mike wants wins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But mazeville, not one of those guys will be up in less than 3 years, and let&#039;s temper our excitement on JO. Even a straight fastball thrown at that speed will dominate short season players. Let&#039;s see how he does in A ball before we get too excited one way or the other. And, nearly all of those hard throwers were relief pitchers, let&#039;s see if they can pitch long into a game. They passed on plenty of starting pitchers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But mazeville, not one of those guys will be up in less than 3 years, and let&#8217;s temper our excitement on JO. Even a straight fastball thrown at that speed will dominate short season players. Let&#8217;s see how he does in A ball before we get too excited one way or the other. And, nearly all of those hard throwers were relief pitchers, let&#8217;s see if they can pitch long into a game. They passed on plenty of starting pitchers.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13495</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding strikeouts and correllation with success, just as important as correllation with current success is predictability of future success.  I haven&#039;t heard this explicitly stated, but I&#039;ve always implied from reading the sabermetric literate bloggers that high strikeout pitchers are more likely to have future success than low strikeout pitchers.

It would be interesting to see a correllation of K/9 to next year&#039;s ERA.  Although, I would expect current year&#039;s ERA to correllate much more with the following year&#039;s ERA than this year&#039;s K/9 with the following year&#039;s ERA.  An even better study would be to group single season&#039;s into ERA buckets, say 2.5-2.75, 2.75-3, 3-3.25, etc.  Then, further subdivide each ERA bucket into low, medium, and high K/9 groups.  Then see if and how much the following year&#039;s ERA was lower for the higher K/9 group within each ERA bucket.

I&#039;m not going to take the time to do the study outlined above, but I&#039;d be really interested in the results if anyone ever did!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding strikeouts and correllation with success, just as important as correllation with current success is predictability of future success.  I haven&#8217;t heard this explicitly stated, but I&#8217;ve always implied from reading the sabermetric literate bloggers that high strikeout pitchers are more likely to have future success than low strikeout pitchers.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see a correllation of K/9 to next year&#8217;s ERA.  Although, I would expect current year&#8217;s ERA to correllate much more with the following year&#8217;s ERA than this year&#8217;s K/9 with the following year&#8217;s ERA.  An even better study would be to group single season&#8217;s into ERA buckets, say 2.5-2.75, 2.75-3, 3-3.25, etc.  Then, further subdivide each ERA bucket into low, medium, and high K/9 groups.  Then see if and how much the following year&#8217;s ERA was lower for the higher K/9 group within each ERA bucket.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to take the time to do the study outlined above, but I&#8217;d be really interested in the results if anyone ever did!</p>
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		<title>By: mazeville</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13494</link>
		<dc:creator>mazeville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with this column, but apparently so do the Twins, which you only briefly referred to with the line, &quot;and some 2012 draftees.&quot; Those &quot;2012 draftees&quot; include somewhat risky picks in the form of hard-throwing relievers whom they think could be converted into starters. Those &quot;2012 draftees&quot; include Jose Berrios, whose K/9 rate was a ridiculous 14.1 this year (low level, I know, but he&#039;s 18).

I&#039;m no fan of the team&#039;s pitching performance, and its reliance on pitch-to-contact guys in recent years has been maddening. But you&#039;ve completely blown off that 2012 draft, which was notable for the team&#039;s heavy emphasis on hard throwers -- something I haven&#039;t seen from the Twins in a long time. You&#039;re about six months too late on this one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with this column, but apparently so do the Twins, which you only briefly referred to with the line, &#8220;and some 2012 draftees.&#8221; Those &#8220;2012 draftees&#8221; include somewhat risky picks in the form of hard-throwing relievers whom they think could be converted into starters. Those &#8220;2012 draftees&#8221; include Jose Berrios, whose K/9 rate was a ridiculous 14.1 this year (low level, I know, but he&#8217;s 18).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no fan of the team&#8217;s pitching performance, and its reliance on pitch-to-contact guys in recent years has been maddening. But you&#8217;ve completely blown off that 2012 draft, which was notable for the team&#8217;s heavy emphasis on hard throwers &#8212; something I haven&#8217;t seen from the Twins in a long time. You&#8217;re about six months too late on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryz</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13484</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 00:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ haplito: I can help you with your strikeouts = better pitchers question. http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/an-attempt-at-understanding-pitch-to-contact/

While the correlations are small, I did find some correlations with the following stats paired with strikeouts.

ERA vs. K/9: -.36 (More strikeouts = smaller ERA)
K/9 vs. IP: .36 (High K/9 = More innings pitched)
Pitches/Start vs. K/9: .51 (More strikeouts = more pitches per start)
IP/Start vs. K/9: .24 (More strikeouts = more innings pitched per start)
Pitches/IP vs. K/9: .24 (More strikeouts = more pitches per inning pitched)

Again, the correlations are pretty small, but strikeout pitchers have a slightly better chance at success than non-strikeout pitchers. 

A small-sample size version is to compare the best pitchers in ERA versus the worst in ERA. You&#039;ll see more pitch-to-contact guys in the 5s for ERA, while more strikeout pitchers appear in the low 3s and high 2s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ haplito: I can help you with your strikeouts = better pitchers question. <a href="http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/an-attempt-at-understanding-pitch-to-contact/" rel="nofollow">http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/an-attempt-at-understanding-pitch-to-contact/</a></p>
<p>While the correlations are small, I did find some correlations with the following stats paired with strikeouts.</p>
<p>ERA vs. K/9: -.36 (More strikeouts = smaller ERA)<br />
K/9 vs. IP: .36 (High K/9 = More innings pitched)<br />
Pitches/Start vs. K/9: .51 (More strikeouts = more pitches per start)<br />
IP/Start vs. K/9: .24 (More strikeouts = more innings pitched per start)<br />
Pitches/IP vs. K/9: .24 (More strikeouts = more pitches per inning pitched)</p>
<p>Again, the correlations are pretty small, but strikeout pitchers have a slightly better chance at success than non-strikeout pitchers. </p>
<p>A small-sample size version is to compare the best pitchers in ERA versus the worst in ERA. You&#8217;ll see more pitch-to-contact guys in the 5s for ERA, while more strikeout pitchers appear in the low 3s and high 2s.</p>
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		<title>By: mike wants wins</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13482</link>
		<dc:creator>mike wants wins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13482</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m trying to figure out how to say this w/o being negative, but I think it all starts with Ryan. He&#039;s all about &quot;not spending too much money&quot;, among other faults. He was in charge when they didn&#039;t draft or trade for guys that should be in their prime pitching years right now. Until the front office changes, or they drastically change who they are, this is what Twins&#039; fans can expect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to figure out how to say this w/o being negative, but I think it all starts with Ryan. He&#8217;s all about &#8220;not spending too much money&#8221;, among other faults. He was in charge when they didn&#8217;t draft or trade for guys that should be in their prime pitching years right now. Until the front office changes, or they drastically change who they are, this is what Twins&#8217; fans can expect.</p>
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		<title>By: haplito</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13478</link>
		<dc:creator>haplito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aaron,

Please believe me when I say this: I&#039;m not trying to be a wise-ass, but... From where does the assumption that strike-out pitchers are good pitchers come from? It seems to dominate sabrmetric thinking, yet I&#039;ve never seen anybody (clearly) lay out that high strike-out rates = good pitcher. Do they correlate with WAR? 

For that matter, I&#039;d like to see someone lay out how OPS correlates with WAR. 

Because you write so clearly, I feel like you could really help people understand this stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron,</p>
<p>Please believe me when I say this: I&#8217;m not trying to be a wise-ass, but&#8230; From where does the assumption that strike-out pitchers are good pitchers come from? It seems to dominate sabrmetric thinking, yet I&#8217;ve never seen anybody (clearly) lay out that high strike-out rates = good pitcher. Do they correlate with WAR? </p>
<p>For that matter, I&#8217;d like to see someone lay out how OPS correlates with WAR. </p>
<p>Because you write so clearly, I feel like you could really help people understand this stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro Munoz</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13473</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro Munoz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Its all comes down to Nick Blackburn.  A few years ago we had too many starting pitchers, and Slowey got moved to the bullpen even though he had outpitched Blackburn - who had the big contract.  Slowey disintegrated, and Blackburn, of course, sucked.   Its not Blackburn&#039;s fault that the Twins gave him a stupid contract and used that contract as a basis to make misguided rotation decisions, but he is at the center of everything that went bad.

I think Liriano could be had cheaply because he isn&#039;t a very good pitcher.  I thought Don Cooper was going to fix him in Chicago, and that hasn&#039;t happened, at least not yet.  It doesn&#039;t do any good to have a pitcher who is sometimes brilliant if he is also sometimes awful.  You have to measure the overall package, and in Lirano&#039;s case, its not very good.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its all comes down to Nick Blackburn.  A few years ago we had too many starting pitchers, and Slowey got moved to the bullpen even though he had outpitched Blackburn &#8211; who had the big contract.  Slowey disintegrated, and Blackburn, of course, sucked.   Its not Blackburn&#8217;s fault that the Twins gave him a stupid contract and used that contract as a basis to make misguided rotation decisions, but he is at the center of everything that went bad.</p>
<p>I think Liriano could be had cheaply because he isn&#8217;t a very good pitcher.  I thought Don Cooper was going to fix him in Chicago, and that hasn&#8217;t happened, at least not yet.  It doesn&#8217;t do any good to have a pitcher who is sometimes brilliant if he is also sometimes awful.  You have to measure the overall package, and in Lirano&#8217;s case, its not very good.</p>
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		<title>By: SL__72</title>
		<link>http://aarongleeman.com/2012/09/26/what-happened-to-the-twins-pitching/comment-page-1/#comment-13472</link>
		<dc:creator>SL__72</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aarongleeman.com/?p=73419#comment-13472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Longest Free Slama post yet!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Longest Free Slama post yet!</p>
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